5 Things podcast: One Israeli and one Palestinian cry together for peace

SPECIAL | One Israeli and one Palestinian cry together for peace

The Parents Circle is the club nobody wants to belong to. Rami Elhanan and Bassam Aramin, co-directors of the club, advocate for peace between Israelis and Palestinians after both lost their young daughters to the violence that has embroiled their region for decades. As Israel and Hamas dig in for a protracted fight, the war teeters on the edge of becoming a much wider conflict with many more civilian lives at stake. Rami and Bassam join USA TODAY World Affairs Correspondent Kim Hjelmgaard to share why they are using their grief as a platform to advocate for peace.

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Kim Hjelmgaard:

Hello and welcome to a special edition of 5Things. I'm USA TODAY World Affairs correspondent Kim Hjelmgaard. Today is Wednesday, November 1st, 2023.

The Israel Hamas War has so far claimed the lives of thousands of innocent civilians. On the Israeli side more than 1400 people have been killed on the Palestinian side the number as of this recording is more than 8,000 people. Both sides have suffered incomprehensible tragedy and emotions are running hot. As Israelis and Hamas dig in for a protracted fight, the war teeters on the edge of becoming a much wider conflict with other Middle Eastern countries joining in.

Meanwhile, members of the Parent circle continue to advocate for peace and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. The Parents Circle is a club that nobody wants to belong to, a community for families who have lost close relatives to violence in the conflict. I am now joined by Rami Elhanan and Bassam Aramin, thank you so much for joining me today.

Rami Elhanan:

Thank you for having us.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Thank you so much. I know this must be a difficult time for you both. I want to start by briefly telling our viewers and listeners of what brought you to the Parrot Circle. Rami, let's start with you.

Rami Elhanan:

I joined the Parent Circle 25 years ago, one year after I've lost my 14 years old girl who was killed in a Hamas bombing in the center of Jerusalem

Kim Hjelmgaard:

And Bassam would you please say a little bit about your story?

Bassam Aramin:

I joined the Parent Circle two days after I lost my 10 years old daughter Abir, to Israeli border police who shot and killed her from a distance of 20 meters in her head from the back, 09:30 in the morning in the front of her school. I joined two days later, because I know my brother Rami two years before this strategy.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

So both of you have experienced tremendous loss. Rami, what went through your head when you heard about the Hamas attacks on October 7th?

Rami Elhanan:

I was really devastated. It was the feeling that everything we worked for for the last 20 years was ruined, that we have to start all over again. The stories are amazing. I have relatives in Kibbutz Be'eri. We were talking to them while they were in the sheltered room. It was devastating. On the other hand, I had no doubt in my mission, in my vision, in my brother Bassam and my other partners, the Palestinians, that violence is not the answer.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

And did it give you pause? Did you sort of start to reevaluate in any way some of the work that you've been part of at the Parent Circle?

Rami Elhanan:

No, it was not unexpected. We are in a circle of blood for the last 75 years, and this is just another round. Nobody expected the viciousness and the cruelty of this round, but it was expected. You cannot put 2 million people in a box, close the cover and expect nothing will happen. And those killers who are acting today were kids when the last bombing of Gaza took place. So it's an ongoing cycle of violence and we were also part of this crimes and we have the moral integrity and the moral authority to tell people this is not the way. There is another way.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Is that what you're telling parents who have lost children in the attacks on October 7th? I mean, what are you telling parents?

Rami Elhanan:

I'm telling them one little simple message, which is the slogan of the Parent's Circle, which says it'll not stop unless we talk. You cannot inhale it. Hamas, you cannot ignore 6 million people, Palestinians, living here in the Holy Land, and you cannot expect them to go away. They will not go away. We will not go away. We are doomed to live here together and we have to choose whether to share this land or to share the graveyard under it.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Does it make a difference if their child was serving in the military that day when you talk to parents?

Rami Elhanan:

Of course it makes a difference, but in the end it has no difference and there is no difference between the victim who killed my daughter and the victim pilot who bombed civilians in Gaza. We are putting hatred and sowing blood. This is the ongoing cycle of violence, which we believe and no one can change it. I mean, killing more and more people will only bring more and more and more killing. And we from our place where we paid the highest price possible, it's our mission, it's our vision, it's our integrity to tell people, stop it. There is another way. We can do it differently.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

And Bassam, I want to bring you in here. As the IDFs bombing campaign in Gaza continues and the Israeli military expands its ground operation there, what have you been thinking about? How have you been processing this? Where do your thoughts turn?

Bassam Aramin:

Unfortunately, it's to create more victims. It's just to count more bodies. It doesn't matter, kids, civilians, women, Hamas fighters, terrorists, whatever. And this is the tragedy. Who paid the highest price always are the civilians, especially the kids and the women who have nothing to do with this war. They want to live, to exist in a normal environment.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

What are you telling families in Gaza now who have lost and continue to lose loved ones, especially given that Save the Children came out with some numbers today saying that there's at least 3,200 children who have been killed in Gaza.

Bassam Aramin:

It's very difficult. I know this pain, it's unbearable pain, but unfortunately I will tell them from now, you will never heal. It's ongoing pain forever. So it's up to you to make your choice to use this pain for more anger, more hatred, to invest and more revenge. Then we will suffer again from the shared circumstances. Or to choose to look forward to the future and to try to use this pain as a power to create more bridge instead of to create more graves. This is the only way, because unfortunately even to kill the rest of the Jewish on Earth or the Muslims on earth, you will never meet your daughter or your loved one again. It's over. Again, it's a choice. And I believe that we in the Parents Circle, Israels and Palestinians, because we love our kids and because we want to do everything possible to overcome our pain in order to create for them a different future.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Bassam, do you feel that message is getting heard in Gaza, or do you feel that you're shouting it into the wind, so to speak?

Bassam Aramin:

Absolutely, it's heard. They are human beings, they are not human animals as they describe them. I was in Gaza many times before 2000. Those people deserve to live and to exist and to live in peace, to send their kids to their school and get them back safe. They deserve to leave the ghetto of Gaza. It's a big jail. They have no right to enter or to leave when they want. They are under a brutal siege. And this is why we see these atrocities, this brutality. It's like a shout that we are here. We want to live exactly like you. So I believe, yes, of course people, even in the darkest times, they must see some hope that it's possible. And to always, I said that Israelis in general or the Palestinians didn't kill 6 million Israelis and the Israelis didn't kill 6 million Palestinians yet. And there is a German ambassador in Tel Aviv. There is an Israeli ambassador in Berlin, so also we can do it. We just need someone brave to take us towards the future and release us from the very painful past.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Rami and Bassam, as sincere as you both are in your mission for peace, I want to play devil's advocate here for a moment. Neither one of you is in charge of laying the groundwork for a ceasefire, or is empowered in any way to broker a peace deal. So what impact can you possibly have on the Israel Hamas war in terms of the work that you're doing at the Parents Circle?

Rami Elhanan:

We are a lowly sound in the wilderness. We are swimming against the current of two very angry and bereaved societies, and we are marginalized and we are fighting against this competition of victimhood of both sides while the world is sitting on the balcony watching us fighting each other. All we can do is shout out loud. All we can do is use our voice, which people are willing to listen, because we represent the price. And some of them listen. And if you look at the social network, I for example, one had people very angry with me. On the other hand, I get a lot of support. So I'm not deluding myself. I know that it's problematic, but as I always say, when we get into the high school of an Israeli or a Palestinian class and there is only one kid in the end of the class nodding his head with acceptance to this rare message, it's a miracle. We saved one drop of blood. In Judaism one drop of blood is the whole world.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Bassam, do you want to have a crack at that one?

Bassam Aramin:

Absolutely. I agree with every single word of my brother. It's not a war between Hamas and Israel. The people forget and the conflict didn't start unfortunately with the atrocities that happened three weeks ago, it's 75 years before, or 55 years before. We said the occupation have no age, the occupation have applies.

I want to talk to the American administration, not with Hamas and not with Israel. Please release us, both of us, please and invest on our peace, not on our blood. Because my daughter have been killed with America rubber bullet unfortunately, from an American M16, unfortunately from an American jeep, American uniform, and the soldier have trained in America, so everything is American. So the point that if you can have some pressure on Israel, sometimes you see some pressure. So secure the borders of Israel, they have no borders until now. It's the only state without borders, without constitution, it's not a normal state.

In the other hand, we can create a Palestinian state. And I believe then some group like Hamas or Islamic Jihad, they become a Palestinian problem, not an Israeli problem. Because if you have international agreement for peace, each side need to protect this agreement and to defend it in front of the people who don't agree with them. Otherwise, believe me, unfortunately it's a waste of time. We talk now, we condemn Hamas, we condemn the atrocities in Gaza and we had failed another few years to repeat it again.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Some people listening to this interview might even be angry that you're talking about peace in the middle of the IDFs military campaign in Gaza, while mothers, fathers, daughters and sons are continuing to die there. What do you say to them in this sort of scenario?

Bassam Aramin:

I said, no one like me, my brother know exactly what you are feeling. Exactly. It's unbearable pain. I know you don't know how you'll survive. You expect to die every minute. It's happened to me, it's happened to us. We must be responsible. My brother always said, luckily that we are human beings. We are bigger than our pain and our sadness. And we cannot leave this pain and sadness control our heads and our minds and our hearts to create a darker time or difficult time for ourselves and for others.

Because we love our children, our beloved one, we want to remember them in a different way. We want to build more bridge between both people, instead of to build more graves. You will never meet your beloved one again. It's fact, which is very painful. But in the same time, let us look forward, for our other kids. You go to take revenge in the name of one child, you don't know how many children you'll lose to take revenge, because both of us, we need to share this land as one state or two states. Otherwise we will share it as two big graves to our kids, our families, and our people. It's up to us to live side by side or together, or unfortunately we will continue to sacrifice the blood of our kids forever.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Rami, you've been working with the Parents Circle for decades now. What keeps you going? Why haven't you given up yet?

Rami Elhanan:

Ever since I joined the Parent Circle 25 years ago, I started a journey. The first meeting I was 47 years old and until today, I'm ashamed to admit it was the first time ever in my life I have met Palestinians as human beings, not as workers in the streets, nor the terrorists and my life was changed. And ever since then, I am on a journey towards my brother Bassam and the Palestinian people and their narrative and their history and their music and their culture, which was deliberately and viciously hidden for me, when I was young by the Israeli educational system.

So this activity within the Parent Circle gave me a reason to get out of bed in the morning, gave meaning to this senseless murder of my daughter, and let me use this unbearable pain in a positive way. The pain is endless. And this is one wound that never heals, 26 years ago and it's still vivid like it happened two hours ago. The pain is of nuclear energy and the question is, what do you do with this nuclear energy. You can use it order to bring distraction and pain and death to people and you can use it to bring warmth and hope, so it's up to you, it's your choice. You climb from your very dark hole every morning after a long and sleepless night and you have to make a choice and decide, I will not use my victimhood in order to victimize others. And that's all there is to it.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

So let's talk some best case scenarios here. Rami, best case scenario, how can this latest violence end right now, today?

Rami Elhanan:

I'm not a politician and in the Parent Circle we are not drawing lines of flow maps and we are not phrasing articles of peace agreement. We paid the highest price possible and we can offer our experience. And I think there is an agreement lying on the table waiting to be signed and everybody knows exactly what should be done in order to finish this stupid conflict tomorrow morning. We can have one state as Bassam said, we can have two states, we can have 10,000 states. We can have a confederation or federation or whatever you call it. These are technical solutions.

One thing is essential and another two things are much more important. The one more important thing is the word respect. You have to be able to respect the guy next to you exactly as you want to be respected, no more and no less. Once you achieve this, the rest is technicalities that can be achieved. And as a Israeli Jew, I will tell you, you have to give up two main issues. You have to give up the victimhood mentality, which you carry on your back for the last 3000 years, and you have to give up the Jewish superiority. Once we will be able to focus on these three words, we can have peace. I believe in it.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Bassam, what gives you the most hope? What keeps you from giving up?

Bassam Aramin:

It's the memory of my daughter, of Abir and Smadak and my other kids. I want to do everything possible to protect them, to look into their eyes. And at least I will say that I did my best to achieve peace and justice. We are not the first or the last conflict on earth, unfortunately. It's not written anywhere that we're going to continue killing each other forever. As Mahmoud Darwish says, the Palestinian national poet, tomorrow the war will end and the leaders will shake hands, and this mother will remain waiting for her beloved son. And this woman will remain waiting for her hero husband to come back and those kids will remain waiting for their father. I don't know who seen the whole land, but I saw who paid the price. We are paying the price. Let us be wise from now and save thousands of lives of human beings.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

I want to thank you both for taking the time to speak with me today. I know this is a difficult conversation for you.

Rami Elhanan:

Thank you for having us.

Kim Hjelmgaard:

Thanks to our senior producer Shannon Ray Green for her production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to [email protected]. Thanks for listening. I'm Kim Hjelmgaard. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with another episode of 5Things.